PrintWhen Is Food Too Expensive? What's Your Bottom Line?
More than $20 for an individual-sized pizza at Una Pizza Napoletana? $34.95 for fried calamari at Cipriani? $?? (I couldn't even find the price) for linguine with clam sauce at Il Mulino? $250 for lunch at Per Se? $350 for dinner at Masa? We all have a little cash register-computer in our heads that is constantly ringing when it comes to food and drink. It silently rings when we are being fairly charged for food and drink and it loudly sounds the alarm when we feel we are being ripped off. But everybody's food-and-drink cost alarm is calibrated differently. We all bring a different set of expectations when it comes to something like the cost of food. Let me tell you mine. Then you can tell me yours.
Delicious, handmade food made with love, passion, and great skill by one person is priceless and maybe even a bargain
Small pizzas costing more than $20 made in this way by Anthony Mangieri at Una Pizza Napoletana do not feel like a rip-off to me. Anthony uses superb ingredients, he makes every pizza that's ever been sold at his restaurant, and he believes in his pizza so much there is nothing else on his menu, not a salad, not a vegetable, not a slice of salumi, to distract his customers. I once suggested he add a salad to his menu to add a little variety and to increase his check average. Mangieri demurred. He didn't want anything to get in the way of his pizza. We need more people like Mangieri making food for us, not fewer.
Motivation matters. I know when I'm being ripped off
When restaurants like Il Mulino or Cipriani charge an outrageous amount for linguine with clam sauce or a plain risotto, it just feels wrong, because it has nothing to do with the price of the ingredients and the skill of the person making it. Rather, it's all about restaurateurs taking the measure of their customers and deciding what their traffic will bear. Cipriani customers are almost gleeful about being overcharged. In fact, they feel it is a sign of their status. As Frank Bruni said in the New York Times, "Besides, prices are the point of Harry Cipriani, which exists to affirm its patrons’ ability to throw away money." Il Mulino buries its customers with "freebies" like chunks of cheese and salami so they won't notice how ridiculous the prices are for items on the menu they are actually paying for. And yet many people love Il Mulino. Why is that?
I don't mind paying more for something that is truly special and delicious
Peach growers like Ron Mansfield of Gold Bud Farms in Placerville, California, don't pick peaches until they are at the peak of ripeness. As a result, the crop yield is much lower. So Mansfield charges more for his supremely delicious peaches. And I happily pay for them.
Artistry, obsession, and the diner's experience matter
A meal at Masa in New York costs $350 before beverage, tax, and tip. And yet all serious critics who have eaten there have appreciated Masayoshi Takayama's artistry and the experience of eating at his restaurant. More important, they don't feel they're being ripped off. That tells you something, namely that the 20 people who Takayama cooks for every night feel they are experiencing something unique, special, and worthwhile. Diners eating at Per Se in New York and Alinea in Chicago feel the same way.
People making or growing great food by hand don't get rich doing it. That is not their primary motivation
Mangieri could make more money selling hundreds of lesser quality pizzas at a lower price. Mansfield isn't getting rich growing his special peaches. Money is not what principally motivates them, and that's important to me.
The values of the people making or growing my food inform my perception of the value of their end product. And that's my bottom line.
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19 Comments:
I have a different sense of value for day-to-day food purchases than for special occasional meals out. I think many people could justify saving up for the odd visit to a place like Per Se (or whatever the equivalent is in their home city) once every few years, as much for the experience as for the food itself. Eating out at a restaurant like that is more about entertainment than simply obtaining sustenance. But obviously there are few people who could justify eating at a place like that every day, or every week.
To have some sort of fixed upper limit for all food purchases would be pointless: to envision someone sitting at Per Se muttering "Potatoes! I could make potatoes at home for 75 cents!" is very sad to me. Unless you're on the dole, I can't think of a better thing to splurge on now and then than food.
Garyo at 9:24AM on 11/28/07
I think there's always an element of conspicuous consumption with any expensive food. After all, you're paying for service, decor, and waste (how much food do they throw away to give you perfectly diced vegetables?). (I would be interested to know whether salaries of the staff reflect the high prices as well--rumor and gossip tells me no. So you're not always paying a high wage to the actual people who are cooking.)
After all, does Dom DeMarco have less passion than Una Pizza Napoletana guy?
I don't doubt that passion and craftsmanship are a factor in the price of food, couture, or other high-priced item, but I think the ability to spend that kind of money--to throw money out the window, as it were--is certainly part of the lure. Saying, "I ate at Per Se" immediately brands you as a person of some means, as well as a person of "taste." (Unlike someone who bought a Serendipity gold-plated dessert.) It's a cultural badge of inclusion. To quote Roald Dahl talking about cars, he said something like "One Bentley driver always acknowledges another as a fellow member of a club."
NYminknit at 10:52AM on 11/28/07
My next door neighbor told me a story that made me cringe. When they first moved to California they went to the French Laundry. They were offered shavings of truffle on an appetizer of pasta. The truffles had been flown from France that day. No mention of price. When they got the bill, they had been charged $75 each for the truffles and the bill, just for the two of them, totaled $600. They said the food WAS wonderful but I just cannot justify paying that much for a single meal.
Stephanie at 10:54AM on 11/28/07
I think that this question is all relative to time, location and bank account. I am a bit of a health freak, so I often eat at The Pump restaurants, which, based upon just the food you get, is a rip off. A plate of plain grilled chicken with a pita is $14. But, it serves the purpose of being healthy, and, for that, I pay extra.
Eating at Per Se or Masa and spending upwards of $400-500 a person is probably just ludicrous to most people. There are many parts of the country where a month's rent would be less than a meal for 2 at masa. But, if you have the bank or expense account, it may be within reach. I think the real shame is that these great culinary expriences are unable to be shared by people who love food or cannot justify spending a car payment for a meal. The worst thing is when people who don't appreciate what they are getting dine at Per Se or other high end restaurants just because they can.
I think at the end of the day, it is simple supply and demand. 100 years ago, pears were a delicacy and would be sold at the equivalent of $40-$50 a pound. Would you pay that now, probably not.
Luckily, I am financially fortunate enough to be able to enjoy the monthly or so splurge at a Per Se or travel to eat a great meal. But, when I think about how much joy that I also get out of a slice of Dom Demarco's pizza, it does make me cringe a bit. As someone else said, going to a top notch restaurant for a tasting menu is as much about the social and cultural experience as it is about the food, or, at least it should be.
Just my $.02
offthebeatenpath1 at 11:15AM on 11/28/07
I spend more on holidays/entertaining than I ever spend on dining out. Between wine, spirits, baking and meals. We live in no mans land so when we go on vacation or into the city we often spend for something we like. It is hard to put a cost on something you do not get often. Would I spend 600 on a meal for 2, probably not. I am one of those people where the best meal I can get is made at home with the best ingredients I can get. On those I do not scrimp.
JerzeeTomato at 11:31AM on 11/28/07
As much as I love good food, there is just no way for me to justify a bill over $200-250 for two people, and even then it better be one of the best meals I have ever eaten from beginning to end. I really don't have a desire to eat at a place where the tab is going to be more than what some people pay for a month's rent. To me it represents sheer excess, almost for the sake of excess. Not my bag, baby.
Fillippelli the Cook at 12:40PM on 11/28/07
It depends. Some places charge the same as the Per Se and Jean Georges but the food is crap, it's all about the scene and the staff are a bunch of pompous snotty morons.
I have no problem at all spending a lot for quality, because the price reflects the actual amount of craft and attention to detail and careful selection and handling of ingredients, and also the level of service. If you read Thomas Keller's recipes in his French Laundry and Bouchon cookbooks, you will understand why the food is so expensive.
A place like Cipriani's on the other hand, is hell hole designed to part you from your money and nothing more. The food is not really any better than what you would get at a mom and pop red sauce slinging joint, without the warm and friendly atmosphere.
Unfortunately, the Thomas Kellers and Jean Georges Vongerichtens of this world are few and far between. I'd rather have a slice and a yoohoo than go to some overpriced glam scene spot and be charged over $40 for a plate that I could much better make at home.
Places like Per Se, Masa, JG? Totally worth it, and everyone should experience these pinnacles of cooking and service at least once in their lives. At the same time, over hyped and over priced wannabees should be shamed out of business.
seyo at 1:24PM on 11/28/07
I spend a lot of money on food, travel a lot for food, and don't mind spending a lot of money on food. I draw the line here:
We live in Toronto. About 1.5 hours out of Toronto is a restaurant called Eisengein Farms (sp?). The chef is Michael Statdlander. The cost per person is $250 flat, no alchol (it's a BYOB restaurant). Because it's so far out of town, you would either have to stay at a local B & B, have a driver, or don't consume alcohol. So after buying wine, gratuity, $500 for 2, plus either a limo or a B&B, you are looking at close to $1000 for one night. A bit too much for me.
That said, I have heard only excellent things about the food.
earlydrive at 3:40PM on 11/28/07
After many great meals in New York City, including Per Se and Jean Georges, amongst many others, I find that I've been putting a greater emphasis on a very subjective "enjoyment per dollar" scale.
A place like Per Se simply doesn't stand up on this scale. I've had meals nearly as good (arguably better) for half the price. It's good, but not $500+ good.
David Cross has a funny bit (on his album "It's Not Funny") on a trip to Jean Georges where he has the epiphany, "wait a second ... you guys! This isn't worth five hundred dollars! Come on! Where's Ashton?" I think I had the same epiphany when I got my bill at Per Se.
That said, if I'm not paying, well ...
If a meal is within shooting distance of $100 per person (give or take), it must be exceptionally good due to the fact that I can be very satisfied by any number of dishes for far less.
"Love," "passion," "great skill," "truly special," "motivation," "artistry," and "obsession" are irrelevant if these aspects aren't there on the plate. Does it taste good? Does it look good? Those are the things that I'm concerned about. The chef won't give me the time of day and doesn't want to befriend me, so I don't care what kind of world he lives in or the nature of the process.
Murray Hillster at 7:25PM on 11/28/07
I think for me, it is much easier to justify spending a lot of money on good sushi rather than an expensive dinner at JG, Per Se, etc. I really have no problem spending 100-150$ on a sushi dinner because the price of the fish and skill of the sushi chef are much easier to justify. I can understand and would be maybe be willing to spend $300 dollars for myself at Masa if i were in the right mood. That said, I spent $300 on a dinner for two at Vetri in Philadelphia this summer which probably pushed the limits of how much I'm willing to spend on a single meal. It was delicious, but close to pushing my limits. However, that meal it was apparent how much work was put into the food as well as the quality of ingredients. Basically, if what I'm paying is whats on the plate I am much more willing to pay a premium than for something near times square, for example, that is blatantly overpriced.
ChiefHDB at 8:22PM on 11/28/07
I'm not wealthy. But, I do spend a ridiculous amount of my disposable income on food (and wine, for that matter) and truly resent when my money is wasted, be it $10 or $100. I don't even dream of eating at Per Se. For our anniversary each year, my wife and I dine at Le Bernardin. In the 20+ years of wedded bliss, we've seen the prix fixe at Le B go from $55 to $107.
Bottle of wine, tip, coat check girl and were talking nearly $400 once a year. A lot of money? You bet. Worth it? Every penny of it. The effort that goes into creating the meal is evident from the moment you sit down. The service is flawless and the atmosphere, a bit stuffy, I'll admit, but all part of the show.
Recently tried a new Italian joint in Park Slope. Appetizers were $8-10 each, pastas $14-18. Dinner for three was $60. But I went home hungry and had a second dinner at home. What I felt was anger, felt like I was taken for a ride. 20 bucks a person and angry. 200 a person and pleased as punch. Go figure.
famdoc at 12:04AM on 11/29/07
I disagree with Ed's opinion and measure the cost of my food in very different values. Read more at Annie's New York Eats:
http://www.annienewman.typepad.com/anniesnyeats/2007/11/the-cost-of-foo.html
annien at 12:08AM on 11/29/07
Food is worth whatever the market will bear. To make sense of it's value, you really need to consider what the product actually is, and the nature of the consumers bidding up it's value.
powermd at 7:31AM on 11/29/07
$600 for a meal is a form of economic discrimination-exclusion, for lack of a better term. Like the person above who remarked about the Bentley owners. It's obvious, to me anyway.
Marco Polo at 9:20AM on 11/29/07
what else could i be doing with the money? that's my question. if i can spend 20 on a pizza and not be full or 16 and be stuffed, then it feels better to be full. obviously if i had greater income, i would just order more of the 20 dollar pizzas and be done with it, but i think a better question would be:
how much do people spend on meals out of their own pocket in a calendar year?
foodinmouth at 10:00AM on 11/29/07
Having dined at some of America's "best" restaurants including The French Laundry, Gallileo, Masa, L'Orangie (sp), Joe's Stone Crab, Radius, Al Forno, Lutece, LeCirque, Daniel, etc. Some have been grat and some have been OK, but over the years ingredients have become increasingly expensive, as has real estate & payrolls. The question of value vs. quality is not a simple one, but here is some perspective. Pizza - Franny's vs. Grimaldi's - Grimaldi's is a full size pizza with quality ingredients and enough of them (yes, a pizza is $16, but you will leave full) Franny's is a small personal size uncut pizza (yes, a pizza is $16, but you will leave hungry as it has fine quality ingredients, but not much of them) I had to get a slice somewhere after eating here. A Subway sandwich vs. a hero from Alidoro for about the same price, both will fill you up, but quality - no contest! A burger from hamburger heaven and a hamburger from BLT Burger - same price, but no contest. Go to Westville for a whole trout for $16 or a mediocre fish house and pay $25. Yes, you will have a table cloth, but an inferior fish and why did you go out to eat to begin with? A homemade gnocchi @ MaxSoha for $9.95 or Olive Garden pasta for more money and lesser quality. Look for quality and craftsmanship when you dine. It could be a great hot dog or pizza or hamburger or it can be a shortrib or lobster - cheap can mean cheap, but care what you put in your stomach and know how to compare apples to apples. Are there expensive restaurants that merit big dollars, yes, but make sure the chef who's cooking you are paying for is in the kitchen. Ouest, A Voce, Fiamma, Park Avenue (season), Union Square Cafe, all deserve a nod because the chef is in & running the show...pride = value.
hondo3777 at 11:26AM on 11/29/07
I think of fine dining as theater, an indulgence of all the senses. When done well, you are entertained, surprised, elated, and amused. A great example of this was my birthday dinner at Sushi Zen. Chef Suzuki created a custom 12 course meal of exquisite beauty and harmony that moved like a symphony for more than two hours. My companion and I were deeply moved, nearly to the point of tears (of joy). I am happily waiting for the next occasion to go again, and would be happy to pay the $150 per person. And that's a lot of money for me, more than I spend normally in a month in restaurants.
My point of comparison is theater, which in NY is far more expensive than almost any restaurant. Could you imagine having a ballet performed for you and your companion by one of the great dancers of the world for only $150? Its a lot for dinner, but not a lot for an unforgettable experience.
hreisig at 12:46PM on 11/29/07
L'Orangerie. And it's too expensive if it is more than you'd budgeted or less than you'd expected. Outrageous if both.
dbird at 11:41PM on 11/29/07
When I first moved to NYC I seriously thought I'd have to choose between paying rent and eating. At all. A few months of exploring later, and I've found some real gems that have been fine for my palate AND my wallet. I'd love to hear some of your picks for cheaps eats, and you're welcome to check out mine.
www.fruglebuglenyc.blogspot.com
cheaponyc at 5:09AM on 01/26/08